21
Aug
2007
The Fan vs The Athlete
Friday, October 19, 2007
Fan-Player Relationship? Does it Exist?
The Fan: I’ve got a great question for you, because you have a unique perspective. I’m glad I remembered this. So on my way to work today, listening to Mike and Mike.. and they went off on this really heated debate/conversation that involved viewer emails and calls. It was in regards to Manny Ramirez… I don’t know if you heard his comments but he said something along the lines of “who cares.. its not the end of the world there is always next year” when talking about losing to
The Athlete: First of all, i think fans who live and die by teams are idiots. People who get depressed or ruin a day if their team loses? That is BS to me. That being said, anyone who has ever played in a big game and lost, the last thing you want to do is talk about it. I’ve definitely said “whatever” after a loss even though that wasn’t how i felt.
The Fan: Okay but wait… you said people whose days get ruined by a team’s loss, that’s BS. I definitely disagree with that. As a fan, I invest a lot of time and energy in reading and learning about my team, following them week to week, hoping that they win. As a good fan, you learn about your team and support them. so if the redskins made it to the playoffs and lost in the first round, i’m not going to enjoy the rest of my day and act like nothing happened. The season is over and i’m sad that it’s done, i’m sad that we lost. When VT lost to LSU, i was sad that night because I had such high hopes for the team. Likewise with the Lakers losing to the Suns. You can’t continue your day normally when a team that you invest so much into loses. Thats part of being a fan. Thats why when the team wins, you feel so much joy. Is the entire Red Sox nation (the true fans anyway) full of bullshit because they were sad the sox hadn’t wont a title in 80 whatever years? Or the Cubs fans now? That’s not bullshit, thats being a fan.
The Athlete: Right, since suddenly you (and I speak in the general you) were alive the whole 80 years of the drought. My point is, when your team loses, it sucks. Of course. But why do people get MORE upset and cry themselves to sleep? If a player is like “there is always next year,” because as a fan that is your mentality too… there is always next year. I would rather hear a player say “there is always next year” as opposed to “this was our year, we failed. it’s over.”
The Fan: I’m not saying i was alive the 80 years but a lot of the people were upset because for 10, 20, 30 years of them following definitely felt sad everytime the sox lost. They are upset because A) the season for the red sox is not over, B) manny ramirez saying “who cares” shows a lack of interest in the team winning. You dont want to route for a guy who’s showing by his comments that he couldnt care less if the team won or lost. That’s why people are furious by what he said. This is similar to how people were mad at Randy Moss saying he doesn’t try all the time. The series is 3-1 Indians, and Manny made those comments. They are still in it, very much so.
The Athlete: Oh the series isn’t over? Alright I take everything I just said back. I don’t follow baseball, you know this. That comment is understandable after you are out. Ok so I agree, it is definitely a stupid comment.
The Fan: Yeah after you’re out, EVERYONE says “oh well, there is always next year.” But to say that in the middle of a championship series? I think everyone agrees, including Golic, that its a stupid comment but the off tangent argument went to..
Should fans EXPECT athletes to care?
The Athlete: Well Golic is right. Who cares what he says if he is stepping up and jacking pitches out. Not the extreme of “who cares” but what I really mean is, should it really matter? TO was such a polarizing figure in Philly, and meanwhile lead them to the Superbowl. Because they lost, the city hated him. I wonder, honestly, if they had won, would they have loved him and embraced him regardless of his comments?
The Fan: But see the counterpoint to that is this, if you show through your comments that you dont care, by saying things like “eh, who cares”, even though
The Athlete: If manny is hitting it out of the park, what more can he do? It’s not like “oh he cares now, so the HRs are going 10 feet further.” That is Golic’s point.
The Fan: It’s not just about hitting it out of the park, that’s one part of being a player. What about running the bases or playing the outfield or diving for balls. THAT’S the main point, not homeruns. Everyone loved Pete Rose because he played like he cared. Ramirez never has played like he cared. His outfield skills have always been questioned, people say he’s always zoned out, and then he makes a comment like this. That just goes to prove that maybe he’s not giving his all, and as a fan, that should upset you (not you, but a sox fan)
The Athlete: How many errors has he committed? How many plays this series has he looked like he didn’t try. I’ve seen him make some pretty nice catches.
The Fan: I don’t have the stats but it’s no secret that Manny has always been questioned in the outfield. That’s not even speculation, its fact. He’s made plenty of mistakes
The Athlete:
Ok, so “as a fan” what do people want? Someone else in there?
The Fan: A player to show that they are giving their all. That’s all anyone asks for.. effort. Why do you think players who aren’t the most talented are often the most loved in cities? Chris Cooley is the most loved redskin and he is not the biggest, strongest, fastest, or most athletic tight end in the league . But he tries EVERY single play. Portis is probably the most talented offensively… and he’s being railed on by fans and the media, and coaches. Should he have said that is a forgone conclusion.. no he shouldn’t have, even if he truly believes it.
The Athlete: Wait, remind me of the issue here. Is it “should he have said that” or “should fans be upset?”
The Fan: Should fans be upset? Greeny, and I say yes.. Golic says no. And this isn’t just about Manny… broad picture… should fans be upset if a player is putting up numbers but says they don’t care if they win or lose. If Jason Campbell said, “I don’t care if we make the playoffs, there is always next year,” would you, as a Redskins fan, be upset or not?
The Athlete: Did he go 25-30 with 3 tds and no INTs?
The Fan: Say it’s his average game
The Fan: 17/28, 185 yards, 1 td 1 int
The Athlete: Well if it’s after an avg game, you are like “well there are things you can do to improve your performance.” Which brings me back to my point, if Manny was having a Jeter-like postseason production, you are like “dude really, you say something like that when you arent even doing anything?”
The Fan: What if the player is regressing each year, significantly, and then he makes a comment like that. Should the fan be upset?
The Athlete: Regressing from what, an amazing season that may not be rematchable?
The Fan: No, his previous norm. If he does well over a 5 year span, then he just slumps out after that each year worse and worse, and then “who cares,” should the fan ave a right to be suspicious and upset?
The Athlete: Maybe he is burned out? Or maybe issues we don’t hear about are affecting him. It isn’t always 100% about a sport, people don’t realize that. Do you care how well you perform if you just heard your girlfriend cheated on you? Or something to that nature…
The Fan: So then basically when does the fan EVER have a right to be upset with a player or question their desire?? Your gf wouldn’t cheat on you 365 days a year for 3 or 4 years straight
The Athlete: Yeah but maybe that’s why he said it on THAT day? That is what I am saying, does that make sense?
The Fan: Not if the player has a history of such comments and wack behavior, no. so answer me this then, when can a fan be upset at a player or be suspicious of lack of desire? I mean we can always play the “oh he must have something personal going on,” but everyone in the league has stuff going on.
The Athlete: I really don’t understand this idea of “fan’s rights.” Who ever wrote the book saying fans deserve this, they deserve that. You don’t ever DESERVE an explanation from a game.
The Fan: So if I go to a restaurant and buy a steak dinner, and the steak is just terrible because the Chef was having a bad day, I don’t have the right or dont “deserve an explanation?” Because fans pay to see a show, and if one of the members of the show isn’t trying their hardest or doing the best that they can do, the fan deserves an explanation.
The Athlete: Well, you are paying him to perform a service for you. The chef wont cook a steak and just put it there. The show goes on whether the fan is there or not.
The Fan: Yeah, i pay for a steak, if its bad, i am upset. I don’t care if the chef’s dog just died and his wife left him. That’s not my concern, that’s not part of my problem. I paid 40 bucks for a meal that i expect to be up to a certain standard. if it is not meeting that standard, i’m upset. And i’m not talking about manny specifically.. now i’m talking about a fans “right” or lack thereof to be angry at a player
The Athlete: Yes but you pay him for a service specifically for you, Broken down to its basics, it’s like “i am going to pay you x amount of dollars for you to cook this for me. make it good” So when an athlete performs bad, he has to answer to his boss, but not necessarily to the fans.
The Fan: Where does the boss get the money to pay that player? The fans. That’s where the sense of entitlement comes from.
The Athlete: So the boss answers to the fans.. Now, most players will answer media questions, talk to fans, sign articles of clothing, etc, because they feel personally tied to a city, and want to see people happy. Yada. And they get something out of it in return, but that isn’t a requirement. They do it because they want to.
The Fan: I’m not saying for the athlete to apologize or do anything.. i’m saying a fan has the RIGHT to be upset at a player who is saying or displaying through comments and actions, that they are not giving their all, because someone who is not giving their all, you can’t convince me, that they are performing at their very best. when i’m at work, if i’m not in the mood or if i’m nonchalant about a certain project, guess what? i may do a GOOD job, better than the average tom or joe on the street, but i’m not doing my company justice because i’m not reaching my potential. Solely because, i dont really care. And that is the reason fans are upset.. because manny may be putting up numbers, randy may have been making plays in
The Athlete: This might be the future lawyer in me, but PROVE to me that he isn’t giving his all. You can’t. Fans just look at stats and say “he didnt play as well today as we know he can” and then need validation. So if they hear “i am sick” then they think ok if he was ok he would’ve done well. They hear “who cares” and say ok he wasn’t even trying.
The Fan: You cant prove it, but when you say “who cares” and he’s said it before, or when randy moss says “i dont try the entire game”, thats as much of an admission as you can get. When randy moss said “i dont try on every play,” what more do you need to say “that dude doesnt try on every play and that’s BS.”
The Athlete: THAT is an admission of not trying. Has manny made such an admission? No, people take “who cares” as the same, but it isn’t. Should he have said it? No. Is it the same thing though? No way.
The Fan: He was asked about facing elimination and said “who cares”… to me, that shows lack of interest. thats how i interpret it. You ask me “Hey Shaun, I’m about to sign a contract with X team.” and i’m like “who cares”… that shows disinterest from me. I equate disinterest the same as not trying or caring. If i’m disinterested in winning or losing, I KNOW that i’m not playing my hardest. Take from that what you may but thats how i process these things. You say to me as ur teammate, shaun you ready to kick some ass today in basketball and i say “who cares” you’re going to be like “… ok” then you see me play well but with no passion or signs of real hard, dive for every loose ball effort…and we then lose, you’re going to question me too. And thats ALL the fans are doing. They are questioning his desire and they are upset about it.
The Athlete: Yes but as a teammate, I expect something out of you, because you affect me.
The Fan: Teams absolutely affect fans just the way fans affect teams. thats why we have teh 12th man and home field advantage and so forth. the two go together. The Fan:s are JUST as important to a professional league as the players are. Without the fans, there is no pro league.
The Athlete: Teammates affect teams is what I am saying, not the fan-team relationship. If I am expecting you to run a play, and you don’t run, then it affects who i can pass to.
Saun 424: Absolutely true. But if i’m a fan and
The Athlete: I know what you are saying about the fans-team relationship,
but can players expect something from fans?
The Fan: Yes, support.
The Athlete: Can they say “crowd wasn’t loud today, so we lost. Thanks guys. What was the deal? Oh your dog died so you didnt show up? I don’t care, you should’ve been there cheering. We needed the 12th man support and didn’t get it.” Ridiculous right? Obviously that is irrational and extreme.
The Fan: Ask
The Athlete: And how about players who play in front of home fans booing them? Do fans still deserve the right to expect him to perform? That is a topic worth discussing. At what point is there a tipping point in either direction.
The Fan: Here’s how I see it. And your points are valid. Here is the dynamic that i see, and how it should work. The fans pay the money, show up, cheer and support the team no matter what. win, lose, you be there, you support. In return the athletes, no matter how much money they make, MUST give it their all. not this trying on some plays and not on others. not the taking a play off nonsense. no. you play every down, every at bat, every posession with the intensity you need to not only succeed individually, but ot make your team the best that it can possibly be. That being said, a fan should never boo a team unless there is a lack of focus or clear lack of effort. i never boo my team.. ever. even when santana moss was playing like a retard, i would never boo him because this is how i see the relationship working. If your players.. on your team.. are giving all that they can.. i dont care if they are not talented if they are doing their best. You support them and hope that management brings in more talent to go with them.
The Athlete: It is a reciprocal relationship. Fair. No matter how bad it is going, you support your player in hopes that he will return the favor.
The Fan: Yes, thats how i see it. If the effort is there by the players on the field, even if they are 0-16, i wouldnt boo them. and i’m being honest. I get pissed at management, not the players.
The Athlete: None of this “boo because of a 3 and out?”
The Fan: Nope, i dont do that
The Athlete: But it happens. You are a different kind of fan. I am saying, a lot of people are like that. “This guy sucks! Oh 60 yard td, that’s my boy!” So for someone like you, I understand why you would be upset with manny. But for most, I say shut up.
The Fan: Yeah i know.. look at the entire city of
If only we lived in a perfect world…
Thursday, October 4, 2007
Yankees-Indian Series
The Athlete:
The Fan: why do you say
The Athlete: i just think they will take advantage of a poor yankees rotation
The Athlete: Wang was the one light in the darkness that was the yankees pitching this year
The Athlete: 19 wins
The Fan: yeah but pettite is as good as they come in the postseason
The Athlete: and they have 4 through 3 innings on him
The Fan: yeah but that doesnt mean much in the scheme of things.. like..
The Fan: he could give up 4 right now and then give up 0 the rest of the way
The Fan: or 4 spaced out over 6 innings
The Fan: still 4 runs
The Athlete: right, well you dont get 19 wins with 8 runs scored on you
The Fan: no i said he could give up 4 runs in 3 innings like he did… and then 0 the rest of the game
The Fan: or
The Fan: 1 every 2 innings over 8 inning span
The Fan: its still 4 runs
The Athlete: ohh i thought you meant from this point on
The Fan: hahaha no
The Fan: but i’m not sitting here saying yanks are gonna win for sure
The Fan: i just THINK they’ll win given how they’ve been really hot since the all star break
The Fan: cle will have to score more than 5 runs a game to beat the yankees i would assume
The Fan: and i dont know if they have it in them, just like i dont know if the yankees rotation has it in them to keep them from 5 runs a game, if that makes sense
The Athlete: yeah it is like a team having the worst offense vs the worst defense… what is going to happen
The Athlete: obviously that is an extreme of the situation
The Fan: exactly
The Fan: same concept though
The Fan: god i love this “one republic” song
The Athlete: some restaurant in
The Fan: hahahaha Sabathia Sliders
The Athlete: delicious, get’s the job done
The Fan: hahahahahahahahha
The Athlete: just like in
The Fan: yeah that was an easy one
The Athlete: it is like burger, bacon, ham, soooo much crap on it
Back to the Game.
Wednesday, August 22, 2007
Vick, Florida QB’s, and a 59 Year Old College Linebacker??
ON VICK’S FUTURE…
THE FAN: given the number of teams that always have a question mark surrounding a qb.. i think its very possible and likely that someone will sign him
THE ATHLETE: right… but it takes a while to get back into being a precision passer
THE ATHLETE: even if you are training off the field
THE ATHLETE: waiting for your return
THE FAN: yeah you have to get back into football shape and condition. agreed. but i think a training camp would be more than enough time for Vick to get back in the swing of things.. and he could even start off as a second string qb much like a rookie such as Brady Quinn is going to do..
THE FAN: then when he’s back into the mode where he is precise again …
THE FAN: he can step in
THE FAN: picture him as a rookie again pretty much
THE ATHLETE: right but even quinn was playing in january
THE ATHLETE: then had a couple of months
THE ATHLETE: off
THE ATHLETE: vick wont be passing in jail
THE FAN: Yeah but Vick still has a lot more football knowledge than a rookie would
THE FAN: the mental aspect
THE ATHLETE: as much as some guys will want him to be the all time qb
THE ATHLETE: hahaha
THE ATHLETE: yeah true, he has experience
THE FAN: i’m not saying i’d sign him.. but i know there are going to be a lot of desperate teams
THE ATHLETE: possibly the falcons
THE ATHLETE: haha jk jk they will be getting some high draft picks
THE ATHLETE: they quickly went from a playoff team to possibly worst record
THE ATHLETE: bc shockley tore his acl
THE FAN: hahahaha yeah that reunion is as likely as Timberlake and Spears
ON FLORIDA QUARTERBACKS…
THE ATHLETE: joey h!
THE ATHLETE: don’t matter
THE FAN: did you see the highlights of Joey Harrington in the preseason?
THE ATHLETE: nah
THE FAN: He looked like….
THE FAN: Joey Harrington
THE FAN: it was gross.
THE ATHLETE: so did rex grossman
THE ATHLETE: sexy rexy
THE FAN: I can’t think off the top of my head of a Florida QB who was a star, translated that into the NFL
THE FAN: Danny Wauerfull or however you spell his weird ass name was a bust
THE FAN: chris leak is a 6th or 7th rounder so he doesn’t apply
THE FAN: who else has QB’d there?
THE ATHLETE: hmmm
THE ATHLETE: charlie ward went nba
THE FAN: haha Shane Matthews
THE FAN: funny how our redskins signed both matthews and waurfell
THE FAN: at the same time too right?? hahaha the redskins.
THE ATHLETE: sick
THE FAN: oh, Jesse Palmer that Bachelor idiot
THE ATHLETE: chris rix
THE FAN: nah he was
THE FAN: Rob Johnson
THE FAN: dude
THE FAN: they have good rb’s and wr’s though
THE ATHLETE: sick backs
THE ATHLETE: texas is good for the fat linemen
THE FAN: texas is good for everything
THE FAN: safeties
THE FAN: wr’s
THE FAN:
ON LARRY JOHNSON…
THE FAN: By the way, did you know that Larry Johnson is 27?!
THE ATHLETE: really?
THE FAN: i thought he was 25.. i forgot he sat behind priest for as a rook
THE FAN: yeah
THE FAN: 27!
THE ATHLETE: i read this pretty good article about him i think last year or the year before
THE ATHLETE: about how he was like quiet and introverted
THE ATHLETE: when he moved to
THE ATHLETE: and his next door neighbors, this white couple
THE ATHLETE: would like try to invite him to dinner and like tell him if he needed anything
THE ATHLETE: let them know
THE ATHLETE: and he never talked when he ate with them
THE ATHLETE: and was like always quiet and like somewhat depressed
THE ATHLETE: and then they started coming home and he would like be on their couch watching tv
THE ATHLETE: or asking when they would be bbqing again
THE ATHLETE: and they basically brought him out of his shell, and then he started being outgoing with teammates after that
THE FAN: hahaha. i heard he pushed his ex girlfriend down at a bar because she was bugging him about him cheating
THE ATHLETE: so his first game worn jersey he framed and gave to them
THE ATHLETE: AHHAHA
THE ATHLETE: i hate how pushing someone down is so wrong
THE ATHLETE: i wouldnt do it
THE ATHLETE: but think about the situation
THE ATHLETE: if your boy was in your ear
THE ATHLETE: yo i heard you got with that chick
THE ATHLETE: just admit it man
THE ATHLETE: you’d be like “DUDE BACK OFF!” and shove him
THE FAN: if i was larry johnson, i’d pay a bouncer to push my ex down
THE FAN: i wouldn’t bother
THE ATHLETE: i’d be like “yo, cheryl, or stephanie, or whatever… i am a running back in the nfl. do you need further explanation?”
THE ATHLETE: i do what i want.
THE FAN: yeah seriously. some broads are so naïve
ON BECKHAM…
THE FAN: by the way
THE FAN: whens your boy “Becks” playing again
THE FAN: i havent heard anything about him since the three assists
THE ATHLETE: he is in
THE ATHLETE: preparing for the natl team’s friendly against
THE FAN: oh, no wonder the media waves are quiet and normal agian
THE ATHLETE: and yes, it IS a big deal to be called up for the national team
THE FAN: hahahahaha
THE ATHLETE: especially when the coach stripped him of his captaincy and cut him
THE ATHLETE: after the last world cup
THE ATHLETE: then they realized they sucked without him
THE ATHLETE: no joke
THE FAN: i’ve taken a pause to bashing him in light of his recent performances
THE ATHLETE: i told you man you just need him on the field
THE ATHLETE: you forgot to mention in your “props to becks” article that he had an assist as well in teh DC game
THE FAN: he can score 5 goals a game in october but once Tom Brady is playing, nobody’s gonna care.. SPEAKING OF WHICH..
ON TOM BRADY…
THE FAN: Tom Brady is going to be at Bridget Mohayananana something’s hospital room when she gives birth to his kid..
THE ATHLETE: good
THE FAN: and then he’s going to be marrying Giselle like,
THE FAN: three months later
THE FAN: hahahahahaha
THE ATHLETE: he was being a dbag
THE ATHLETE: saying that “i dont know… it’s up to bill”
THE ATHLETE: STFU bill eats out of the palm of your hand
THE ATHLETE: it is your child being born
THE FAN: i know right
THE ATHLETE: don’t fak
THE ATHLETE: e
THE FAN: man he’s going to be nasty with Randy Moss
THE ATHLETE: yeah i think possibly probably
ON FREDDY ADU…
THE ATHLETE: ps do you know who freddy adu signed with
THE FAN: i heard about this the other day
THE FAN: i forgot though
THE ATHLETE: my favorite team.. sl benfica
THE ATHLETE: in
THE FAN: yeah i remember reading that
THE FAN: i hope he becomes a star… he’s been a bust so far
THE ATHLETE: well the problem is
THE ATHLETE: you see a video of like this kid that is going ot be a star in hs
THE ATHLETE: put him in the league now
THE ATHLETE: he is avg
THE FAN: yeah but i heard he had attitude issues and didnt mesh with bruce arena in DC
THE ATHLETE: same story with adu… if you ever saw videos of him against his own age
THE ATHLETE: he was a baller
THE ATHLETE: even in june/july with the u20 world cup
THE ATHLETE: he had a hat trick against
THE ATHLETE: a couple more goals/assists
THE ATHLETE: he was killing it
THE ATHLETE: but when people have experience on you
THE ATHLETE: doesnt matter how fast you are sometimes, they know waht you are going to do
THE ATHLETE: so i think he will come into his own in a couple of years
THE ATHLETE: but yeah i mean he was like pissed at dc he wasnt consistently starting, and was like “you are ruining my chances of getting selected for the national team”
THE ATHLETE: i mean “starting for the national team”
THE ATHLETE: and bruce came out and said “i’d worry about starting for your own team before you start to think about the national team”
THE ATHLETE: which is true… you don’t see any bench warmers on national teams for any sport
THE ATHLETE: except for maybe
ON FANTASY FOOTBALL DILEMMA…
THE FAN: man you should have gotten into the fantasy league with us this year
THE FAN: you had a VIP INVITE!
THE FAN: everyones all excited cause the draft is saturday at 1:30
THE FAN: i’m having some people over who are local and we’re gonna do the picks from there
THE FAN: while the others are gonna join in online on the yahoo live draft thingy
THE FAN: you shoulda done it wiht us man!
THE ATHLETE: see i am going to be gone
THE FAN: you can set your picks ahead of time
THE FAN: like
THE FAN: if x is available, draft him…
THE FAN: if not, then this one
THE FAN: and u set
THE FAN: and that reminds me that.. i’m commish.. and i have 14 people right now..
THE FAN: i’d rather have had 12…
THE FAN: but i’ve sent out two reminder emails for people to set their picks ahead of time if they wont be online during the live draft… otherwise u have to wait for the 5 min or 3 minute draft time per pick for whoevers not there
THE FAN: and that is annoying and a waste of time
THE FAN: so i’m thinking if two people fail to set their picks and cost us 5 min each for every round..
THE FAN: i might cut them from the league and their picks will be free agents
THE FAN: but that might set off people going crazy trying to claim the players off waivers and yahoo.com would explode.. and friendships would be forever lost hahaha
THE ATHLETE: hahahahahha
THE ATHLETE: yes, some feelings and actual bodies may be harmed
THE FAN: pretty much. fantasy isn’t a joke.
ON 59 YEAR OLD GRANDFATHER PLAYING COLLEGE BALL…
THE FAN: wow. a 59 year old grandfather made the football team at a d-III school
THE FAN: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2986313
THE FAN: are you kidding me? he’s going to play linebacker!
THE FAN: isn’t that some sort of health hazard?
THE ATHLETE: hahhahaa well he is a personal trainer
THE ATHLETE: so he is in good shape
THE ATHLETE: plus d3 football
THE FAN: I dont care. he is 59! That has to be illegal in some college football safety book
THE ATHLETE: he isnt getting hit by the dbs at va.tech
THE ATHLETE: you know
THE FAN: i wonder if he had to appeal to some panel like Rocky did in Rocky Balboa
THE FAN: D-III Ball… keeping it classy.